Author Topic: Clay hotel  (Read 28348 times)

andreareed

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Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2012, 02:17:05 PM »
We are using Crowne Plaza again because we don't have alternative options for a tournament hotel big enough to host elim rounds, which requires 16 discrete meeting spaces.  The Hilton, which is our preferred hotel, keeps booking up the meeting space for our weekend, and yes, we've explained to them that this threatens the rest of our business with them.  Lexington is not a big place.  The are only two other hotels that have enough meeting space to hold our event... one is the Hyatt Regency across the street from the Hilton which won't go under $179 a night as our group rate (which if you are doing the math, is a difference of nearly $30,000 that the community would be spending on hotel rooms over the course of the weekend, not just a couple bucks).  The other is the Marriott Griffin Gate Resort, which is over $200 a night.  So my choices were to use the meeting space at the Campbell House or not have the tournament.  We also have blocks of rooms at two hotels, so if you do not want to stay at the Campbell House for whatever reason, which is your prerogative, you can stay at the Courtyard Marriott.  Or you can book something else through a travel website. Or you can not come to the tournament at all if that's how you feel.

Jillian, I was not present at the NCA meeting, so I don't know what you think I promised to you there.  We didn't go with the Hilton again for the topic meeting because there was a church conference there and the hotel was totally booked, like zero vacancy, not because it was a little more expensive.


jgonzo

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Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2012, 02:19:26 PM »

I have yet to see an argument FOR keeping the hotel.  What I do see is a lot of folks feeling swept under the rug.  This has seemed like a no-brainer for awhile now.  

I see two of the tournament hosts going out of their way to research the question that has been raised and to reassure the teams that they have invited to their tournament that the hotel in question has no discernable connection to slavery, aside from the fact that its architectural style is shared with buildings that were constructed on the estates of slave owners nearly 100 years before the construction of the hotel.

This seems to be the opposite of being "swept under the rug." I am not sure how one could read it as anything other than an earnest attempt to put these concerns to rest to the greatest degree reasonably possible.

Best,

Josh

jmarty

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Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2012, 02:33:49 PM »
We would never ask individuals who have had family members in the Holocaust to stay at a “concentration camp style” hotel. I would bet they would feel highly uncomfortable staying there knowing what went on at concentration camps. Why would we ask individuals who have strong historical ties to slavery to stay at a plantation style hotel.  Or even question if their feelings are legitimate. Now Im not Black Im Puerto Rican but I would feel uncomfortable staying in a place that looked like a plantation. We all know what went on in plantations—lets not kid ourselves, they represent places were horrible horrible things occurred. And to ignore a request from community member for a reasonable accommodate, is not only wrong but it this case can lead to mental instability.

ScottyP

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Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2012, 02:50:17 PM »
Most of the hotels Emory stayed at back in the day def. seemed concentration camp themed.

jgonzo

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Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2012, 03:10:20 PM »

1. Nobody has denied that slavery was bad. That is an utter canard. Nobody has ever asked anyone to step foot in a hotel that celebrates slavery. Similarly, we would not ever ask anyone to step foot in a "concentration camp" style hotel.

2. The equivocation of "plantation" or "ante-bellum" styles of architecture with slavery is a faulty association. Lots of plantations existed that did not own slaves. Lots of buildings used columns, pilasters, red brick, white paint, and the golden ratio that did not own slaves. Some students may have been made uncomfortable by the attribution of that hotel as a former slave plantation. Most reasonable people would be. However, that was a false attribution. Their discomfort was well-meaning, but ill-founded. They should rest easy knowing that no slaves have ever been held in that building.

3. If you are angry at anyone, I would suggest being angry with whomever made the incredibly short-sighted and ignorant decision to lob an accusation of racism at a number of people without checking their facts before they did it. They were wrong AND IT IS A GOOD THING THAT THEY WERE, BECAUSE IT MEANS THAT WE WEREN'T IN A PLACE THAT HOUSED SLAVES.

Best,

Josh

Boomer

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Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2012, 03:17:16 PM »
 "However, that was a false attribution. Their discomfort was well-meaning, but ill-founded."

Do you not find a problem in saying this?


Boomer

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Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2012, 03:45:04 PM »
This is not a debate.

"If you are angry at anyone, I would suggest being angry with whomever made the incredibly short-sighted and ignorant decision to lob an accusation of racism at a number of people without checking their facts before they did it. They were wrong AND IT IS A GOOD THING THAT THEY WERE, BECAUSE IT MEANS THAT WE WEREN'T IN A PLACE THAT HOUSED SLAVES."

Really? Be angry at two black debaters who  felt uncomfortable sleeping at the hotel. One whos name is campbell?  "Ignorant decision"..not to be rash, but dude, come on thats silly...you said you didnt stay there.  Were you there for the final round?

We (my team)  feels its worse that it celebrates the plantation than if it was a plantation in the first place.  You can disagree, but your being a little too defensive here.

Accusations of racism were flung at who?  Who?  I don't think anyone ever called anyone a racist.  I really dont.


Jackie

AbeCorrigan

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Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2012, 03:55:19 PM »
This is not a debate.
"If you are angry at anyone, I would suggest being angry with whomever made the incredibly short-sighted and ignorant decision to lob an accusation of racism at a number of people without checking their facts before they did it. They were wrong AND IT IS A GOOD THING THAT THEY WERE, BECAUSE IT MEANS THAT WE WEREN'T IN A PLACE THAT HOUSED SLAVES."
Really? Be angry at two black debaters who  felt uncomfortable sleeping at the hotel. One whos name is campbell?  "Ignorant decision"..not to be rash, but dude, come on thats silly...you said you didnt stay there.  Were you there for the final round?
We (my team)  feels its worse that it celebrates the plantation than if it was a plantation in the first place.  You can disagree, but your being a little too defensive here.
Accusations of racism were flung at who?  Who?  I don't think anyone ever called anyone a racist.  I really dont.
Jackie

Jackie---
No one is saying your debaters who felt uncomfortable are not genuine nor that their concerns should be ignored. But you need to give us a little bit more help here. As Andrea posted (& was seemingly immediately ignored), there are not a ton of other hotel options that can both accommodate the tournament and keep housing fees low. Despite the fact that there is clearly significant disagreement about the hotel's history, UK has booked a smaller set of rooms for those who feel uncomfortable or have trouble sleeping at the Courtyard by Marriott. We would like to accommodate and be responsive to criticism however since we aren't going to cancel the tournament, I think there is some frustration about what exactly the solution you're proposing is/point you're trying to make.

Abe

anonymousdebateuser

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Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2012, 04:00:19 PM »
Wow jmarty, I like how you responded to zero percent of what anyone has said. But hey, you're definitely right about racism being bad. Also wtf is a concentration camp style hotel? I don't think that would be a profitable business model…

And Jackie you seriously need to get over yourself. The architecture is racist? You CHOSE your username, a username that is celebrates the genocide of an entire population (which is even more ironic considering you're responsible for a debate argument which condemns that genocide). The fact that anyone takes you seriously anymore is baffling to me.

And to everyone, this thread is the PERFECT indication of how the community is becoming a parody of itself. I've literally had debaters (and my god, COACHES) tell me that I should feel guilty because of the color of my skin, guilty for crimes that I have not committed. If I told you I was black, that would sound racist. If I told you I was white, it would sound "acceptable" (and at this point, encouraged). The activity is producing individuals that are more and more out of touch with reality, individuals who glorify people who call their competitors "Nazis" (because that's not ACTUALLY offensive), individuals who immediately jump to conclusions without properly researching the issue first (which I thought was antithetical to the goals of the activity).

Call me a racist, call me a sexist, call me homophobic, god knows the activity has come to strip these words of their meaning anyways.

Boomer

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Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2012, 04:14:46 PM »
Abe,

I really had no plans in making a big deal out of this beyond not attending.  I think it was clear that my debaters were uncomfortable staying there from the final round last year.  It felt like a plantation to them, and the cook told them it has been off limits to black folk for many years.  It was false to call it a "former plantation".  Finding out that it was not a former slave plantation did not ease their feelings or thoughts about the place.  To them it has that same representation, and symbolizes the slave plantation. Others feel this way also.   It is too bad that another venue was not negotiated.  I don't think we are saying that anyone chose the hotel for what it represents.  Some debaters will attend and use it to empower themselves, my students cannot.  There are many other tournaments to attend and not attending this tournament will not make or break our year or the tournament.  Staying somewhere else was considered, but we still have to come there for elim rounds.  I feel like people think that we are just looking for something to be up in arms about, but we know that it is not a level playing field when you are competing in a 3 day marathon and you can't sleep at night. There are many other reasons debate is unfair to black debaters, (debatable i know) but this kinda pushed it over the top.  That is why we are not attending.  I never told one team not to attend.  I am sure we will attend the tournament in the future under a different venue.  I am not offering an "alternative" or a "counterplan", we are just choosing to not attend this tournament this year.

Best,

Jackie

Boomer

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Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2012, 04:15:47 PM »
your anonymous dude, all we can call you is faceless and heartless...get over yourself...

Boomer

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Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2012, 04:21:44 PM »
Really? Your so ashamed of yourself and your thoughts you had to create an anonymous account?
Grow up!

Wow jmarty, I like how you responded to zero percent of what anyone has said. But hey, you're definitely right about racism being bad. Also wtf is a concentration camp style hotel? I don't think that would be a profitable business model…

And Jackie you seriously need to get over yourself. The architecture is racist? You CHOSE your username, a username that is celebrates the genocide of an entire population (which is even more ironic considering you're responsible for a debate argument which condemns that genocide). The fact that anyone takes you seriously anymore is baffling to me.

And to everyone, this thread is the PERFECT indication of how the community is becoming a parody of itself. I've literally had debaters (and my god, COACHES) tell me that I should feel guilty because of the color of my skin, guilty for crimes that I have not committed. If I told you I was black, that would sound racist. If I told you I was white, it would sound "acceptable" (and at this point, encouraged). The activity is producing individuals that are more and more out of touch with reality, individuals who glorify people who call their competitors "Nazis" (because that's not ACTUALLY offensive), individuals who immediately jump to conclusions without properly researching the issue first (which I thought was antithetical to the goals of the activity).

Call me a racist, call me a sexist, call me homophobic, god knows the activity has come to strip these words of their meaning anyways.

jgonzo

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Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2012, 04:32:11 PM »
You are entirely correct, this is not a debate. I'm really sorry your debaters were uncomfortable. I'm sorry you think that the use of the word "plantation" is worse than an actual plantation. You're wrong. One is a misplaced and misused metaphor by you. The other was an actual place where chattel slavery was practiced. Your equivocation of the two is both misleading and dangerous.

You still have not answered why it is that you feel enough discomfort with the tenable connection between the hotel at the Kentucky tournament and slavery to decide not to attend, but not enough at the documented history of segregation at the institution for which you work to leave there. Please explain the difference between the two before you implicate the character of Andrea and the Kentucky debate team and their openness to students of color.

Josh.

This is not a debate.

"If you are angry at anyone, I would suggest being angry with whomever made the incredibly short-sighted and ignorant decision to lob an accusation of racism at a number of people without checking their facts before they did it. They were wrong AND IT IS A GOOD THING THAT THEY WERE, BECAUSE IT MEANS THAT WE WEREN'T IN A PLACE THAT HOUSED SLAVES."

Really? Be angry at two black debaters who  felt uncomfortable sleeping at the hotel. One whos name is campbell?  "Ignorant decision"..not to be rash, but dude, come on thats silly...you said you didnt stay there.  Were you there for the final round?

We (my team)  feels its worse that it celebrates the plantation than if it was a plantation in the first place.  You can disagree, but your being a little too defensive here.

Accusations of racism were flung at who?  Who?  I don't think anyone ever called anyone a racist.  I really dont.


Jackie

Boomer

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Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2012, 04:37:26 PM »
Why do I have to explain anything?  Your making way to many assertions to have a reasonable conversation with.

Sorry...

You are entirely correct, this is not a debate. I'm really sorry your debaters were uncomfortable. I'm sorry you think that the use of the word "plantation" is worse than an actual plantation. You're wrong. One is a misplaced and misused metaphor by you. The other was an actual place where chattel slavery was practiced. Your equivocation of the two is both misleading and dangerous.

You still have not answered why it is that you feel enough discomfort with the tenable connection between the hotel at the Kentucky tournament and slavery to decide not to attend, but not enough at the documented history of segregation at the institution for which you work to leave there. Please explain the difference between the two before you implicate the character of Andrea and the Kentucky debate team and their openness to students of color.

Josh.

This is not a debate.

"If you are angry at anyone, I would suggest being angry with whomever made the incredibly short-sighted and ignorant decision to lob an accusation of racism at a number of people without checking their facts before they did it. They were wrong AND IT IS A GOOD THING THAT THEY WERE, BECAUSE IT MEANS THAT WE WEREN'T IN A PLACE THAT HOUSED SLAVES."

Really? Be angry at two black debaters who  felt uncomfortable sleeping at the hotel. One whos name is campbell?  "Ignorant decision"..not to be rash, but dude, come on thats silly...you said you didnt stay there.  Were you there for the final round?

We (my team)  feels its worse that it celebrates the plantation than if it was a plantation in the first place.  You can disagree, but your being a little too defensive here.

Accusations of racism were flung at who?  Who?  I don't think anyone ever called anyone a racist.  I really dont.


Jackie

Boomer

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Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2012, 04:53:24 PM »
okay, i gotta ask.. why do you feel this is about me?  Do you feel guilty?  I dont get it.

You have no idea what I am doing to change segregation at the University of Oklahoma.  I am doing more to address that issue in Oklahoma than most people are doing in the debate community.  I dont run from racism, i try to figure out how I am implicated and continually work on my participation in a racist system. I dont say racism is somewhere out there.  Its everywhere I go.  I dont "reject" racism, I engage it and hoping I can work towards reducing it, which includes my role. I didnt misplace a metaphor that caused my debaters to feel the way they felt.  They felt that way...no debate...
Which is more dangerous and to who?
Your right, not all plantations had slaves..duh...i should get a little more credit than that, but did southern plantations have slaves and slave houses that looked like the hotel?  tough question...

Its not me making a big deal out of this, or implicating the Kentucky debate team.  Its your remarks and the ridiculous remarks of others that are pushing this to absurdity.  Stop defending it and think about it for a bit.  Ask yourself why you got involved?







You are entirely correct, this is not a debate. I'm really sorry your debaters were uncomfortable. I'm sorry you think that the use of the word "plantation" is worse than an actual plantation. You're wrong. One is a misplaced and misused metaphor by you. The other was an actual place where chattel slavery was practiced. Your equivocation of the two is both misleading and dangerous.

You still have not answered why it is that you feel enough discomfort with the tenable connection between the hotel at the Kentucky tournament and slavery to decide not to attend, but not enough at the documented history of segregation at the institution for which you work to leave there. Please explain the difference between the two before you implicate the character of Andrea and the Kentucky debate team and their openness to students of color.

Josh.

This is not a debate.

"If you are angry at anyone, I would suggest being angry with whomever made the incredibly short-sighted and ignorant decision to lob an accusation of racism at a number of people without checking their facts before they did it. They were wrong AND IT IS A GOOD THING THAT THEY WERE, BECAUSE IT MEANS THAT WE WEREN'T IN A PLACE THAT HOUSED SLAVES."

Really? Be angry at two black debaters who  felt uncomfortable sleeping at the hotel. One whos name is campbell?  "Ignorant decision"..not to be rash, but dude, come on thats silly...you said you didnt stay there.  Were you there for the final round?

We (my team)  feels its worse that it celebrates the plantation than if it was a plantation in the first place.  You can disagree, but your being a little too defensive here.

Accusations of racism were flung at who?  Who?  I don't think anyone ever called anyone a racist.  I really dont.


Jackie