Author Topic: Clay hotel  (Read 28343 times)

Henry Clay

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2012, 06:33:37 PM »
This is not a debate.

The young black men have been told to stop their short-sighted and ignorant opinions. How much bigger can the capital letters get about this being A GOOD THING THAT THEY WERE (short-sighted and ignorant), BECAUSE IT MEANS THAT WE WEREN'T IN A PLACE THAT HOUSED SLAVES.

The slaves had been freed by 1951 yall. Relax.

Also, never ever ever ask to have the name of the tournament changed. Henry Clay should be remembered for freeing slaves in his will, and treating his slaves really well - seriously he was famous for it, he treated all 60 slaves he owned very well! Don't worry about it, relax. Do not have any short-sighted and ignorant opinions about this. Henry Clay should be remembered for being the Secretary of State, a great politician, and for successfully defending against Charlotte Dupuy when she sued him during the famous Freedom suites.

Not racist. Now everyone sleep well, there are debates here soon... hopefully about framework.

FrancesWoodworth

  • Guest
Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2012, 06:55:40 PM »
I dont run from racism, i try to figure out how I am implicated and continually work on my participation in a racist system. I dont say racism is somewhere out there.  Its everywhere I go.  I dont "reject" racism, I engage it and hoping I can work towards reducing it, which includes my role.

...by staying at home and boycotting the tournament?

JSchultz

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2012, 07:12:12 PM »
anonymity is used for a lot of reasons. sometimes it seems justified, whistle-blowing and speaking truth to power can be intimidating and/or dangerous.
but if you are using anonymity to beat up Massey, it says a lot. it speaks very poorly of you if you are using it to take cheap shots at the person that just hosted CEDA nats, coached his 4th(?) CEDA championship team, and is seemingly trying to respond to a discussion he didn't initiate about protecting his debaters.
it speaks terribly of you if you are using anonymity to further privilege of any sort. i really hope you aren't someone i know if you are hiding behind anonymity to cowardly protect your own privilege & the privilege of others. if i do know you, don't tell me who you are. i can't imagine you will have a reason for it that i find remotely compelling.

Scotty P may not be funny - at all - but at least he put his name out there with his terrible joke.

koslow

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2012, 07:15:28 PM »
There's a profound nostalgia among many for the ante-bellum period. Things like the Tara plantation from Gone with the Wind, the band Lady Ante-bellum, etc. There's a lot of romanticism in that image of proper Southern gentlemen and ladies: gentlemen who could sit around in suits all day and attend debutante balls all night, because they owned black men who could do their labor for them; ladies who wore fancy ornate dresses and were always reserved and always obeyed proper etiquette, because they had a nurse-maid to raise their children for them.

This nostalgia is the same sentiment that makes people hang up Confederate flags in their house or on their bumper sticker. It's a nostalgia that isn't shared by many black Americans. It's the nostalgia that the Campbell house - designed in the "ante-bellum" style - attempts to evoke.

The feelings of debaters must be weighed against logistical concerns, and if there's a prohibitive expense/restriction, perhaps the Cambell House should be used. But no one can pretend we are not making a decision of logistics OVER the comfort of debaters in doing so.

Paul Elliott Johnson

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 135
Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2012, 07:40:49 PM »
Why not just have whatever OU elim is on campus in the UK squadroom or something? a shuttle to there would take like 5 minutes...it would even ensure coaches were out of the elim rooms.

#kindathoughtiawasjoking

#notreallyjoking

yoursystemsucks

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2012, 07:46:47 PM »
Why not just have whatever OU elim is on campus in the UK squadroom or something? a shuttle to there would take like 5 minutes...it would even ensure coaches were out of the elim rooms.

#kindathoughtiawasjoking

#notreallyjoking

LOLWUT.
lets keep the people who talk about $anythingOtherThanElections in a separate area. yes. lets do that

Paul Elliott Johnson

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 135
Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2012, 07:57:41 PM »
There are more people "not talking about elections" than just the Oklahoma team so I'm sure you'd rather not essentialize them as one monolith.

Also, if you make the "teams talking about elections" (which comprise some although not all of the elim teams) GO TO Oklahoma's location I'm not sure its precisely what Brown v. Board was directed at.

I sense in the discussion a

A) legitimate sense of discomfort from Jackie and his debaters

B) a legitimate claim that the tournament is saving every squad attending something like 20 bucks a night per room by using the Campbell House.

I don't know what your budget is like, but a few extra hundred dollars saved at a tournament is a big deal for our budget. If the tournaments makes accomodations that mean that those who feel uncomfortable don't have to be uncomfortable, thats great.

To put it another way (drawing out the analogy which you have made, quite courageously from the anonymous protection of a false internet persona, undoubtedly in between noting your substantial dissappointment with a number of plot holes in The Dark Knight Rises ) the problem with segregation policies was that they kept people out of places they wanted to be, as opposed to an alternate solution, which keeps people out of places THEY DO NOT WANT TO BE.

yoursystemsucks

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2012, 08:12:29 PM »
There are more people "not talking about elections" than just the Oklahoma team so I'm sure you'd rather not essentialize them as one monolith.
$=var;l2cs
Also, if you make the "teams talking about elections" (which comprise some although not all of the elim teams) GO TO Oklahoma's location I'm not sure its precisely what Brown v. Board was directed at.
wat?


I sense in the discussion a

A) legitimate sense of discomfort from Jackie and his debaters

B) a legitimate claim that the tournament is saving every squad attending something like 20 bucks a night per room by using the Campbell House.
k

I don't know what your budget is like, but a few extra hundred dollars saved at a tournament is a big deal for our budget. If the tournaments makes accomodations that mean that those who feel uncomfortable don't have to be uncomfortable, thats great.
k. why not have all elims on campus, if you're trying to be so accommodating.

To put it another way (drawing out the analogy which you have made, quite courageously from the anonymous protection of a false internet persona, undoubtedly in between noting your substantial dissappointment with a number of plot holes in The Dark Knight Rises ) the problem with segregation policies was that they kept people out of places they wanted to be, as opposed to an alternate solution, which keeps people out of places THEY DO NOT WANT TO BE.

>the problem with segregation policies was that they kept people out of places they wanted to be, as opposed to an alternate solution, which keeps people out of places THEY DO NOT WANT TO BE.

>kept people out of places they wanted to be, as opposed to an alternate solution, which keeps people out of places THEY DO NOT WANT TO BE

>which keeps people out of places THEY DO NOT WANT TO BE

>keeps people out

yr slippage is showing.

(o_o)
(o_o)>■-■.
(■_■)


Paul Elliott Johnson

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 135
Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2012, 08:16:43 PM »
to respond to the only serious part of this (hold elims on campus not at hotels):

School is in session on Monday, so there probably isn't space.

FrancesWoodworth

  • Guest
Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2012, 08:27:01 PM »

Scotty P may not be funny - at all - but at least he put his name out there with his terrible joke.
Ah, the sweet irony of Jim Schultz criticizing other peoples' sense of humor. Though to be fair, what Scotty P said wasn't as funny as jmarty's original post about hosting a tournament at a hotel with a Holocaust theme.


>the problem with segregation policies was that they kept people out of places they wanted to be, as opposed to an alternate solution, which keeps people out of places THEY DO NOT WANT TO BE.

>kept people out of places they wanted to be, as opposed to an alternate solution, which keeps people out of places THEY DO NOT WANT TO BE

>which keeps people out of places THEY DO NOT WANT TO BE

>keeps people out

yr slippage is showing.

(o_o)
(o_o)>■-■.
(■_■)



Good point. Except for the fact that these particular debaters NO NOT WANT TO BE at that location. I don't think Paul was implying that all non-traditional debaters need to be shipped off to an alternate location, just that they should have the option to debate somewhere else.

yr stupid is showing

AbeCorrigan

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2012, 08:44:40 PM »
We did try but ultimately were unable to get enough classrooms to host elims on campus. Classes & such.
Abe

yoursystemsucks

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2012, 08:50:14 PM »

Good point. Except for the fact that these particular debaters NO NOT WANT TO BE at that location. I don't think Paul was implying that all non-traditional debaters need to be shipped off to an alternate location, just that they should have the option to debate somewhere else.

yr stupid is showing


mhm.
Quote
it would even ensure coaches were out of the elim rooms.
#dftt #wkeverywhere

anonymousdebateuser

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2012, 09:07:57 PM »
JSchultz-

I'm not attacking Jackie purely out of spite (and I do think CEDA was run very well and congratulate him on his success), I'm criticizing what he says because it is INCOHERENT. His most recent defense of his debaters' discomfort is that a hotel that was in NO WAY connected to slavery, to them, "symbolizes a plantation." Wtf does that even mean? Why are his debaters above criticism about a non-sequitur that affected everyone at that tournament? THAT is privilege. Posting anonymously in a forum? Not sure how that's privilege…

It's interesting that you say Jackie is trying to respond to a discussion he didn't initiate when all evidence points to the contrary. HIS debaters lobbed accusations of racism at the community and the hotel, and when Andrea enlightened us by stating facts that contradicted their unwarranted claims, he STILL chose to fault the tournament staff for something they could never know. Guess what? I rarely "feel" comfortable sharing a small hotel room with three other people. If I find a review on foursquare that says a hotel is haunted then is it legitimate for me to blame the tournament staff?

koslow

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #43 on: August 29, 2012, 09:31:51 PM »
His most recent defense of his debaters' discomfort is that a hotel that was in NO WAY connected to slavery, to them, "symbolizes a plantation." Wtf does that even mean?

I hope my explanation did a little to illuminate what that means. The ante-bellum style and architecture attempts to evoke a memory and sensibility which was only possible because of the system of slavery. If you don't understand why black debaters don't want to stay in a monument to that style - to be transported to ante-bellum Kentucky - I feel the chasm between us is too great to have a productive discussion.

Jackewing

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #44 on: August 29, 2012, 10:30:11 PM »
I do not think that we, or anyone else in the room, were attempting to call the hosts of the tournaments racists for not thinking about the way that architecture can affect different individuals who find themselves in this space. We did say that this lack of thought was a matter of privilege. I think it is telling that the only people trying to dislocate the architecture from a very violent history are white. I will not belabor this point as I believe koslow explicated the reasoning quite well.
In terms of this anonymity jive that is going on, besides you acting like an immature asshat, your hiddeness (in this situation) is a matter of privilege. It is a foundational strategy of whiteness to speak absent an identity location as if you are the truth speaker of the debate community.
Certainly there were some factual mistakes made during that discussion. Even if we knew this new found historical data before the debate it would not change what we did. To reduce what happened in the forum to a matter of facts is to displace and erase the meaningful parts of the discussion. By making the discussion about the historical accuracy of claims one gives into an empirical account which erases the affective discussion which undergirded the entire process. Agents of whiteness are always trying to reduce discussions down to questions of empirical precision as a way of shifting the focus from the larger violent struction which they support. The OU debaters and many other individuals I spoke with were made to feel uncomfortable which should be reason enough to change up the venue. I know this process is difficult and I respect the hard work put in by Dave, Andrea and Abe looking into alternatives. Programs are strapped for cash and I think Paul is right in a lot of what he says. I just feel like there could be some way to have out rounds held at a different location. I know it is too late this year, but I hope in years to come this situation can be rectified.
Jack