Author Topic: Clay hotel  (Read 29479 times)

DarrenElliott

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Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #60 on: August 31, 2012, 12:56:48 PM »
Jackie,

How am I off on anyting I said?  I started off with acknowledging your feelings, your debaters' feelings, and your convictions as all legitimate.  And you are right--not a debate about that.  That's where I think common ground begins.  So no, not a debate.

Kentucky's hand was forced.  No hotel, no tournament.  They then went above and beyond as hosts and researched the hotel and offered other accomodations.  I think that was great of them.  I still think you are right not wanting to debate in the hotel.  You make choices based on convictions and you have every right.  I support you.  Did you not get that from my post?  If not, I am saying it again.  You are right, the feelings are legitimate, and I support you.  Why would I ever debate feelings?

What I then asked for was more dialogue on choices.  If it is ok to put UK on the spot why can't we talk about other choices?  Is that conversation uncomfortable?  You say your debaters talk about these issues and then ask do mine.  Yeah some of them do.  You even judge some of those debates.  We still pref you : )  But they also talk about politics sometimes, like some OU teams do as well.  What does your question even mean?

The point is this.  Debate as an activity as you describe it is a white man's game.  You're trying to change that.  I imagine your're angry because as your describe yourself, you are "uber competitive".  That means tough choices.  Your convictions say skip Kentucky.  I applaud that.  But we also know any team trying to get to the NDT would be hard pressed to skip both Kentucky and Vegas,  So even in the face of a more personally palatable choice to attend a tournament in a city on a campus where the very things you fight for are every day issues, you have to go debate somewhere else.  Why? Because the game forces you too.  I'd be pissed too.  There will be more "National Circuit" teams at Vegas, it will be bigger, more "white people", and the choice to attend there is one you have to make.  I get that.  But don't be angry at me for bringing up the same issues you talk about in  a different context.  We probably agree more than we disagree Jackie but how can the dialogue on these issues ever be productive in any forum, debate round or otherwise, when the natural reaction is to dismiss what others have to say as lobbing criticism and turn inward and resume the criticisms yourself.  Maybe that's not your intention, but that is how it comes across.

I wanted to discuss locations as appropriate places to discuss issues that are imporant.  Then you tell me I miss the boat.  That's unfortunate.  If we cannot have dialogue about places and choices, then why was Kentucky ever criticized int he first place about places and choices? 

all best,
chief

Boomer

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Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #61 on: September 01, 2012, 06:22:32 AM »
Why do you care what my team does? Ask yourself that.  Because they give you a TOC bid at your HS tournament, so you better get their backs here?

I dont get it.

Jackie


Jackie,

How am I off on anyting I said?  I started off with acknowledging your feelings, your debaters' feelings, and your convictions as all legitimate.  And you are right--not a debate about that.  That's where I think common ground begins.  So no, not a debate.

Kentucky's hand was forced.  No hotel, no tournament.  They then went above and beyond as hosts and researched the hotel and offered other accomodations.  I think that was great of them.  I still think you are right not wanting to debate in the hotel.  You make choices based on convictions and you have every right.  I support you.  Did you not get that from my post?  If not, I am saying it again.  You are right, the feelings are legitimate, and I support you.  Why would I ever debate feelings?

What I then asked for was more dialogue on choices.  If it is ok to put UK on the spot why can't we talk about other choices?  Is that conversation uncomfortable?  You say your debaters talk about these issues and then ask do mine.  Yeah some of them do.  You even judge some of those debates.  We still pref you : )  But they also talk about politics sometimes, like some OU teams do as well.  What does your question even mean?

The point is this.  Debate as an activity as you describe it is a white man's game.  You're trying to change that.  I imagine your're angry because as your describe yourself, you are "uber competitive".  That means tough choices.  Your convictions say skip Kentucky.  I applaud that.  But we also know any team trying to get to the NDT would be hard pressed to skip both Kentucky and Vegas,  So even in the face of a more personally palatable choice to attend a tournament in a city on a campus where the very things you fight for are every day issues, you have to go debate somewhere else.  Why? Because the game forces you too.  I'd be pissed too.  There will be more "National Circuit" teams at Vegas, it will be bigger, more "white people", and the choice to attend there is one you have to make.  I get that.  But don't be angry at me for bringing up the same issues you talk about in  a different context.  We probably agree more than we disagree Jackie but how can the dialogue on these issues ever be productive in any forum, debate round or otherwise, when the natural reaction is to dismiss what others have to say as lobbing criticism and turn inward and resume the criticisms yourself.  Maybe that's not your intention, but that is how it comes across.

I wanted to discuss locations as appropriate places to discuss issues that are imporant.  Then you tell me I miss the boat.  That's unfortunate.  If we cannot have dialogue about places and choices, then why was Kentucky ever criticized int he first place about places and choices? 

all best,
chief


Boomer

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Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #62 on: September 01, 2012, 07:13:46 AM »
Chief,

My frustration lies in people not reading the full discussion before they post.
I do not feel like I need to repeat over and over again my position.  It has been decided.
My frustration is more about peoples response to this.  They have taken 2 paths.

The first path seems to be to deligitimize my decision, as though I can erase the emotions of my students.  I never asked anyone else to do the same.  
Why do others want to deligitimize my claim that my students feel uncomfortable at that hotel, and we wont stay there?  Did you not see where I said
ITS ABOUT THESE THREE DEBATERS STAYING AT THIS SPECIFIC HOTEL.

Your discussion has nothing to do with that. It actually trivializes my discussion as something crazy and impossible.  It's not a discussion about "places" but about this "specific place" that has the last name of one of my african american debaters whos ancestors were owned by slave owners that lived in Kentucky, and staying at a house that was made to celebrate the southern plantation is dehumanizing.  Period.  You cant say its not.  If you do, your a racist.

The debate is no more than that.  I never said that the UK people never tried, nor did I say anything resembling most of the mischaracterizations about UK.  Most of the negative things about any specific people were prescribed to me, but really as assertions made by other people trying to warp what I am saying.

You mention in your post that how its hard to get to the NDT and not go to Kentucky and Vegas, but i think you meant GSU.
That proves how some people in this community have lots of power, even if it is in what seems to be small incremental decision making.  Those tournaments only have that power if we give them that power.  I think my teams are good enough that true results will show at Harvard and Wake.  And if we are not, then we can accept that, because its our decision.  We are making this decision as a team.

The SECOND path seems to be on a bonding with the host.  This comes from the idea that nobody wants to be called a racist.  And if one of my friends are called a racist, then I better step in and stop that shit.  Racism is evil, but if a situation arises and this might be contributed to my friend, or even worse, my community, then I have to disprove it.  It seems as though people are saying being called out for a racist situation is worse than the experience of racism from that situation.  And to be honest.  The community made its position visible now.  Andrea and Dave have said less in defense of the situation than most who have chimed in.  Its obvious it was a community decision now, their decision was also based upon the support of those who have chimed in.  I even said I know they attempted to change the hotel, but that doesnt change the feelings my students get from staying at that specific hotel.  

For others acting as though my kids are soft, and just need to suck it up and take on the oppression, you don't know them, and if you did you probably wouldn't see it that.

So why do people chime in?  I never said boycott the tournament, I only said we are not going.

Many schools skip many tournaments each year for various reasons.  Is it the reason?

I think Cal has avoided the Kentucky tournament before, why didnt they get the super criticism? or should we talk about that one...

Peace,

Massey








Jackie,

How am I off on anyting I said?  I started off with acknowledging your feelings, your debaters' feelings, and your convictions as all legitimate.  And you are right--not a debate about that.  That's where I think common ground begins.  So no, not a debate.

Kentucky's hand was forced.  No hotel, no tournament.  They then went above and beyond as hosts and researched the hotel and offered other accomodations.  I think that was great of them.  I still think you are right not wanting to debate in the hotel.  You make choices based on convictions and you have every right.  I support you.  Did you not get that from my post?  If not, I am saying it again.  You are right, the feelings are legitimate, and I support you.  Why would I ever debate feelings?

What I then asked for was more dialogue on choices.  If it is ok to put UK on the spot why can't we talk about other choices?  Is that conversation uncomfortable?  You say your debaters talk about these issues and then ask do mine.  Yeah some of them do.  You even judge some of those debates.  We still pref you : )  But they also talk about politics sometimes, like some OU teams do as well.  What does your question even mean?

The point is this.  Debate as an activity as you describe it is a white man's game.  You're trying to change that.  I imagine your're angry because as your describe yourself, you are "uber competitive".  That means tough choices.  Your convictions say skip Kentucky.  I applaud that.  But we also know any team trying to get to the NDT would be hard pressed to skip both Kentucky and Vegas,  So even in the face of a more personally palatable choice to attend a tournament in a city on a campus where the very things you fight for are every day issues, you have to go debate somewhere else.  Why? Because the game forces you too.  I'd be pissed too.  There will be more "National Circuit" teams at Vegas, it will be bigger, more "white people", and the choice to attend there is one you have to make.  I get that.  But don't be angry at me for bringing up the same issues you talk about in  a different context.  We probably agree more than we disagree Jackie but how can the dialogue on these issues ever be productive in any forum, debate round or otherwise, when the natural reaction is to dismiss what others have to say as lobbing criticism and turn inward and resume the criticisms yourself.  Maybe that's not your intention, but that is how it comes across.

I wanted to discuss locations as appropriate places to discuss issues that are imporant.  Then you tell me I miss the boat.  That's unfortunate.  If we cannot have dialogue about places and choices, then why was Kentucky ever criticized int he first place about places and choices?  

all best,
chief

« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 07:33:36 AM by Boomer »

DarrenElliott

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Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #63 on: September 01, 2012, 10:57:54 AM »
Comments like the TOC comment are so ridiculous and laughable that it's hard to be offended.  It also really detracts from your message.  Since you obviously don't know, I'll point out that TOC bids are awarded by a committee of mostly HS coaches, not Andrea and Dave sitting in their office combing social media sites to see who has their backs.  However Andrea and Dave do get to decide awards at Kentucky's tournament, and quite frankly I am pissed you have outed my covert attempt to court their favor to the point of naming a speaker award after me.  Thanks!!

Now your follow-up post actually started to engage.  However it continues to ignore comments of others, shout "racism", and repeat.  How is that productive?  Look you posted why you weren't attending.  Everyone knows there was a reason for that post.  You can't tell anyone it was just a friendly FYI and hope they believe that.  If it wasn't to encourage others to boycott or shut the tournament down (and I really don't think it was) then presumably it was to shed light on a larger issue in our community.  Virtually everyone who has posted, including me, has acknowledged the feelings of your debaters and supported your decision.  It is horrible they had to feel that way.  No one is disputing that Jackie.  No one is defending their friends as a way to dispute that.  Quit repeating that line as if anyone who has read the other posts is too dumb to know it's not true.

I posted because I presumed your intent was to bring a larger community issue to light.  Instead of accepting the dialogue you chose to criticize me, tell me I didn't get it, tell me I was courting favors for a damn HS tournament, etc. 

No productive community dialogue can ever happen when you selectively choose your allies based on your own comfort, when you refuse to look at yourself and choices you make, and when you insist on building walls of division with over-the-top claims against people who honestly are trying to engage you and a larger community issue.  When the response is met with "racism" because one simply tried to engage, do you ever think things will change? 

Look, I acknowledged your problem, I publicly supported your decision, and I tried to engage you on the larger issue.  That last part was uncomfortable so the first two were dismissed by you and then you put me in the camp of the "community enemy".  Your choice.  Makes me wonder why people even want to try anymore when every community discussion degenerates into this.  Before you post again about how people don't get it, and accuse others, please consider your own dialogue and how you have built more walls than you have tried to tear down.  Until then, I don't think I can invest more personal energy.

I do feel for your debaters and hope things change for them and you.  I also wish you the best of luck wherever you choose to debate.

chief

anonymousdebateuser

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Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #64 on: September 01, 2012, 12:53:08 PM »
It's not a discussion about "places" but about this "specific place" that has the last name of one of my african american debaters whos ancestors were owned by slave owners that lived in Kentucky, and staying at a house that was made to celebrate the southern plantation is dehumanizing.  Period.  You cant say its not.  If you do, your a racist.

It has been brought to our attention that some have voiced concerns about the Kentucky tournament's use of the Crowne Plaza's "Campbell House". After the final round of the Clay last year, we did some research on the property, and to be clear, the Campbell House was built as a hotel in 1951 by Ralph Campbell. It was not a plantation at any point.

The architect's last name was Campbell, the hotel did not receive its namesake as an homage to southern plantations. Also where is any kind of evidence that would indicate the architect designed the hotel for the purpose of celebrating southern plantations? In an earlier post I referenced how Koslow was essentializing the south by associating an architectural style popular during the antebellum period with slavery. This is a gap in logic. Even if your debaters' feel uncomfortable there, you should really warrant your claims before you defile an entire establishment.

Boomer

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Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #65 on: September 01, 2012, 12:58:18 PM »
you should not be ashamed of yourself and post who you are, or otherwise your a bot...


It's not a discussion about "places" but about this "specific place" that has the last name of one of my african american debaters whos ancestors were owned by slave owners that lived in Kentucky, and staying at a house that was made to celebrate the southern plantation is dehumanizing.  Period.  You cant say its not.  If you do, your a racist.

It has been brought to our attention that some have voiced concerns about the Kentucky tournament's use of the Crowne Plaza's "Campbell House". After the final round of the Clay last year, we did some research on the property, and to be clear, the Campbell House was built as a hotel in 1951 by Ralph Campbell. It was not a plantation at any point.

The architect's last name was Campbell, the hotel did not receive its namesake as an homage to southern plantations. Also where is any kind of evidence that would indicate the architect designed the hotel for the purpose of celebrating southern plantations? In an earlier post I referenced how Koslow was essentializing the south by associating an architectural style popular during the antebellum period with slavery. This is a gap in logic. Even if your debaters' feel uncomfortable there, you should really warrant your claims before you defile an entire establishment.

anonymousdebateuser

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Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #66 on: September 01, 2012, 01:38:38 PM »
you should not be ashamed of yourself and post who you are, or otherwise your a bot...

That's it Jackie, if you can't respond to logic or reason then take issue with my anonymity.

Or should I say 0100110001100

Boomer

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Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #67 on: September 01, 2012, 01:40:19 PM »

I cant hear computers, only people...someone say something?.....

you should not be ashamed of yourself and post who you are, or otherwise your a bot...

That's it Jackie, if you can't respond to logic or reason then take issue with my anonymity.

Or should I say 0100110001100

Boomer

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Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #68 on: September 01, 2012, 01:45:56 PM »

like the sound of one hand clapping....


I cant hear computers, only people...someone say something?.....

you should not be ashamed of yourself and post who you are, or otherwise your a bot...

That's it Jackie, if you can't respond to logic or reason then take issue with my anonymity.

Or should I say 0100110001100

AbeCorrigan

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Re: Clay hotel
« Reply #69 on: September 01, 2012, 03:19:34 PM »
Why do you care what my team does? Ask yourself that.  Because they give you a TOC bid at your HS tournament, so you better get their backs here?
I dont get it.
Jackie

Dude, unnecessary.
Abe